This is a rough transcript of questions put to Bapak about testing. Other persons that were present were Tuti, Muti, Siti Rahaju and about twelve other Subud members, mainly helpers, who were saying goodbye before leaving to their own countries.

Bapak asked them to join his answering of our questions, so that they could learn something of it. The talk was given without being scheduled on Wednesday morning half past ten in the morning in the castle. The talk was partly recorded on a little portable cassette recorder, which is the reason of the very bad quality of the recording and also of the writing of this script. The last ten minutes ,which are not on tape, I will try hereby to reproduce by memory. A testing which was done about Rachman Varpaalen was not translated. Later on the tape was very carefully listened to by Math Jalhay, an Indonesian speaking Dutch Subud member, and made a provisional rendering.

The questions which were put forward, were actually done on behalf of the Subud group 'Oegstgeest who had recently experienced a turmoil after the practice of a specific kind of testing which RachmanVerpaalen and Maarten Thoorenaar ( a very old Subud member who, though being on the wrong tract in his way of testing, was very much respected and loved by the members generally spoken )did over a longer period of time. What they did was apart from testing already very much, questioning in testing let say every fortnight over each member whether there were messages of importance to indicate to the members separately. ( So the members did not know what indications would come or on what subjects, nor did the helpers );to make this system workably in matter of time the helpers tested without members being in presence.

As an example it could happen there could come a message that member A. should better leave his girlfriend because their inners did not fit, or for example member B. should pay attention to his sex life in his marriage because if not his marriage would seriously come in danger. One could imagine that some members got very upset and feel hurt, whether the message was true or not, so this gave a big mess in this group, were there were brotherly feelings and harmony before ( Now, four years later after this talk, I can say from results of what happened in life, these messages contained truth, although I don't want to judge from what origin they may have been received. For sure the late Maarten Thorenaar was very sincere before God even when he had a wrong interpretation how to deal with the gift of testing ).

( Rachman Verpaalen ) Well after all what happened and all the talk Bapak gave and what he said in general about also testing, we now at the moment would like to ask Bapak what we should do now and if testing is generally spoken so bad and so much influenced by the nafsu, what to do with testing in general.

Then we would like to know what actually was wrong and maybe what was wrong with testing for people who were not there and on the other hand there were people who liked us to do so. So we would like to know whether it is good or not to do, testing for people who were not there with their permission or to go on testing for people who are there. So just looking upon the ruins we don't know what to do.

( Sharif ) was there not a question for people without asking a question?

( Eduard Schweden )Yes, whether it is possible for example for the committee to test and ask just for guidance, even when there is not a a specific problem at that moment, so just ask whether there is any specific message to pay attention to or not, whether it is good to do so.

( Bapak ) First of all the purpose of testing is to encourage people, to make enthusiasm to come to the latihan, to encourage people to get together in Subud, and there is nothing wrong with doing testing, providing it is done by a helper who is really experienced, that is to say that he has done the latihan for a long time and is rather patient and above all he is capable of being impartial.

Because the helpers still tend to take sides in a problem or tend to get involved in a problem, it means that he is still using his heart. Now the important thing in testing is first of all that it should only be done when it is really necessary, when there is a problem that is necessary to be tested, you must be very careful about testing becoming a hobby, something you do for fun. In other words you test all sorts of things which are not really necessary to be tested, and that your mind can make a row of problems which you can test. That is the case in Holland and maybe Indonesia, and maybe other places, and the result is invariably split and disharmony in the group. Because people are all the same all over the world, if you receive about people which you test for is something nice, then he will approve of your testing, but if you receive or test what happens about somebody happens to be unpleasant, they will feel they are being slandered and offended and will always cause split and disharmony and you must be very, very careful.

What is therefore the important thing is that when you test, it should really be something which is really, really necessary, in other words if somebody asks a question, you can test, first of all the person must be present and also it is vary important that it should never be tested by one person, but it should always be three or four, so that there is a balance and so that the receiving of one helper will be checked by the receiving of the others. It is fine if there are two and they are not influenced by each other; but if one influences the other it is the same as having only one helper, there is no advantage in being with two then. So it should be more than two.

For example if one who tests happens to have self interest in the test, the other ones can balance it; for example if I try to test something about my son, then obviously if I see something nice, I will tell it, but if I receive something not nice I will try to hide it, cover it. So it is necessary to have some others; by those who are not influenced by this, to check it. It is not that I intentionally want to hide something because it is my child, but it is an involuntary thing, it is an unconscious process. So the golden rules are really that you only test things that are necessary, and secondly that you have more helpers which you test with.

Testing problems for the committee is all right; for example if the committee has a special problem to be tested, then it can be tested. But Bapak does not advise you to put this kind of question what is God’s will to do so and so, what is God’s advice to do so and so. From God you receive many, many things.

Bapak explains it this way: if you receive a written document, which says the law has changed so and so, there is a new law passed in the republic of Germany and that you must do so and so, signed: the president of the republic of Germany. It is not sure at all that the president knows anything about it, so it is in his name; it may be coming from the mayor, it may be coming from someone else.

And as Bapak has explained, within our being there are the lower forces, all the levels of lower forces, also the human force; and we are constantly influenced by it, so it will tell us all sorts of things. But also the answering is by higher forces, as for example the roch rochania. So you receive things from many, many different sources and it is still very, very difficult for us to distinguish.

So that it is Bapak’s advises you not to make a hobby out of testing, or test about things which are unnecessary; there is more and more danger that you get wrong things and so on. Bapak said to be able to receive clearly in other words without disturbance, to get a real clear answer you must be able to be completely non existing at the moment of testing, your jiwa is gone. For example when Bapak tests, at the moment Bapak tests Bapak is gone, there is only the situation, only the reality, so that Bapak can be completely objective of what the truth is. But if the one who tests is mister Thorenaar for example: if Mr. Thorenaar is still there at the moment of the testing, the testing cannot really be clean.

So Bapak says the important thing is to mainly stick to things which are really, really necessary. In the latihan you receive all sorts of secrets about other people and in the latihan we understand about each other, so this is like a secret. In other words the latihan is full of secrets of life, Bapak says. But if I know your secrets and then I tell it to somebody else, that is like I'm slandering you or I am giving away your secrets. This is what is not allowed so therefore you should be very careful about other people, especially when they don't ask you to test.

Then Bapak said: testing is good, as long as it is not unnecessary, because it answers certain questions. The nature of the questions, which are usually easy to answer are practical things, but the testing Bapak does with us in his talks and in the latihan, Bapak does this as an example or to give us some experience; but Bapak sees that it is not yet time for us to imitate them or duplicate Bapak’s testing. We are not ready for it yet. But what is useful for us is when there are practical problems which need to and which cannot be answered in usual way, that is necessary to test and there is nothing wrong with it. Even then, whether the answer is right or not right is a question, but then if we are not influenced the chances that the answer is right are high, but if we are influenced not. And this experience has happened very often, for example: somebody loves a girl very much, so when ever he tests, whether this girl is the one he should marry the answer will be yes, yes this will be the one, this is the right partner. So then he goes to the helper and he says to the helper : look I am in love with her and so on, can you check in a test whether this is my right partner, and unconsciously the helper is influenced by the feeling of this man. He also, when he tests, receives yes, whereas in fact, the reality is that the girl may even have not seen the man even, so this goes wrong.

This has happened many, many times in Subud. For example this story about this Subud member who has been married for fourteen years already and he receives that his wife is not his right partner in other words he should divorce her and marry a girl who he was very much in love with, a Swiss girl. And every time he tested about it, he received yes, it is right and when he tested it with helpers, they also received yes it is his right partner; so he should divorce his wife. And then he asked Bapak and Bapak said: just a minute, if your wife was the wrong partner why did you marry her fourteen years ago, you must have realized this long ago already and if you have already been married with her for fourteen years you must take the responsibility and also don't forget that God can repair something that cannot be repaired, but God can fit together two things which don't fit. So therefore you have to take responsibility for your marriage and just go on with it. But luckily in this case of course he had no children, but still Bapak says you have to be responsible and actually this girl in Switzerland, she's not very interested in him, although he had been madly in love with her for ten years or so. And by chance he actually had to come to Switzerland when Bapak was there and met this girl. And then actually they met and she told him right in his face I'm not very interested and I never have dreamed to be your wife and in fact I'm not very keen of it. So then he was very surprised and then he came to Bapak and Bapak said: so you know for yourself now; Bapak said it is the truth. So in this case it is very easy to become influenced and receive something that is incorrect.

So what Bapak says is it is O.K. to test; Bapak says it is good to test and testing gives you enthusiasm to the latihan, it gives you a kind of experience which encourages the people to do latihan, so therefore it is good, but don't overdo it and don't come so far that testing becomes a hobby and you test about this and about that and about other people who are not there, because then it is like Bapak said, as if you were testing about secrets about other people, which should not be known, so it is not right. And also, if you do too much testing, then your latihan does not make progress, so your spiritual progress is impaired or reduced. And it is an evident case in the case of mister Thorenaar. Maybe because he has been doing a lot of testing, his spiritual progress has not gone so smooth or so straight.

( Testing about Rachman Verpallen and Mr. Thorenaar )

( Sharif ) Bapak has been testing about Mr. Thorenaar and Bapak asks: Rachman,when you were close to Mr. Thoreneer and you were testing with him, don't you feel sometimes dizzy or as if you want to vomit?

( Rachman ) Yes, when near Mr.Thorenaar, one is still trying to formulate it and Mr. Thorenaar is already testing it.

( Bapak ) Bapak does not want criticize or want to put people down but he only wants to tell the reality about the case of Mr. Thorenaar. Because Bapak does not hate anyone nor does Bapak love anyone, because if Bapak hates someone it is a sin and if Bapak loves one it is also a sin. So when Bapak tells about Mr. Thorenaar it is just the reality. So it is not that Bapak is trying to put down Mr. Thorenaar.

Although Bapak does not like to do this, Bapak has to insist on you to test brother Thorenaar and brother Rachman. There has been some complaints in the groups and Bapak hopes that everything will get in right order after all this.

( Testing about Mr. Thorenaar )

( Notes )

Bapak asked in the testing the attitude of mister Thorenaar ( Muti, who was testing ,fell down on the floor with a scream ). He went on about the head, neck etc. After this the testing went on about Maria, siti Fatimah and Bapak himself. About the testing about mister Thoreneer Bapak says he sees a dark shadow and a feeling of headache, a tendency to vomit and a state of dreaming. Bapak does not explain this testing, but only he says he is not blaming anybody not Mr. Thornear nor anybody else; also he may not judge. Because to be angry and to judge others is against the Almighty; it is always a sin to judge.

After this Rachman Verpaalen is tested. Bapak declared from the testing that Rachman were as to be ill, also that the latihan of Rachman had to be different. Bapak continued ( sounding a bit angry ).

Rachman has the tendency to want to stand beside Bapak, but who is Rachman. Rachman is nobody, just as it were still a child in Subud. Bapak goes on making comparisons, like Petrus is a very big man in the spiritual life, but despite that he can never stand next to Christ. Christ has lived as a human being on earth with divine characteristics and has been an example to humanity.

Brother Thorenaar ,Bapak continued, is very well able to receive well due to his age and number of years he has been in Subud, but one must keep in account that impure influences can sneak through.

After this Bapak hopes the problem has been solved and you will brotherly serve the good in Subud at full heart.

Now Bapak would like to tell something of Bapak himself. Bapak was sick a few years ago and doctor Rachman Mitchell diagnosed that Bapak just had a heart attack and Bapak admits that in accordance to the knowledge of the doctors and what the doctors understand, Bapak had a heart attack. But for Bapak, Bapak did not have a heart attack, for Bapak it was a latihan ,and this was how Bapak had received the latihan since he was young. So at that time doctor Rachman told me that Bapak was about to die. Bapak answered to me and he said “Oh, not at all, it looks like Bapak will be here for a very long time.” And when I told doctor Rachman ,Rachman was shocked and he said “how can it be?” So don't get the impression that Bapak is blaming mister Thorenaar. Bapak simply wants to remind you that it is all right to test and you can go on with testing, but don't do it for fun or for pleasure. But it is good to do some testing. Through that you get a kind of confidence in the latihan and it encourages you to do your latihan more diligently. And before the testing Bapak said that there were many levels of jiwa, and God always gives according to where a person is at that moment, to his nature; so a person who has not yet reached the vegetable level is still in the material. If that person is still in the material, God cannot give him something or will give him something that belongs to the vegetable level, but only in relation to the material world.

That is why Bapak is sometimes frightened. When Bapak tests a certain number of people can receive. Then if Bapak wants to test higher than the material world, Bapak is frightened that people want to imitate him because we forget that there are different levels; maybe Bapak can do it, but we are not yet ready for it. That is Bapak wants you to test, but at the same time Bapak is frightened and Bapak is afraid that we will misunderstand and abuse it.

So Bapak just tested :how is the head of Thorenaar and how is the nature of Thorenaar; you cannot test just one thing for example, you have to test the nature of Thorenaar, then you have to compare, you have to make a scale to compare with: so Bapak tested about Mary the mother, the nature of Jesus and the body of Jesus, the body of Siti Fatima, the body of Muhammad’s wife, the body of Petrus, the disciple of Jesus, so you have a comparison and then Bapak tested about the nature of Mohammed himself and the nature of Hitler, so Bapak had a scale and then the nature of Thorenaar and you have seen it yourself. So for example in the case of Petrus, you could see that though he is a follower of Jesus, he is not at all like Jesus. He is still influenced by the material, he is still very, very far from Jesus. And in the case of Hitler, he was fully in the material world.

Bapak talked further about Mas Sudarto out of Cilandak. How he warned Mas Sudarto many times not to test so much, but still he kept on doing testing very much, and one of the victim of this behavior was Mas Luqman Keeler, who lost a lot of money due to this; also Mas Sudarto was inhibited in his spiritual progress by doing so.

After that Bapak questioned if we were satisfied in the answering of our questions. I myself felt my personal question, about the asking for guidance in testing without having certain questions or difficulties, so just asking if there are any items of importance to pay attention to as a testing question itself, was not answered, so Sharif translated this to Bapak again.

Bapak replied that it had no use to test and get an answer that for example a person has a ability of becoming rich seen from the kejiwaan, as long as the person concerned has not the willpower out of himself to put the effort to become rich.

Further Bapak remarked about communism that the fact that it was infiltrating and developing so much everywhere as he found out by watching television all over the world, was due to the corruption in our system and that is also for us a reason to start doing enterprises, to give an example how it is to work in the world without corruption. It is all right to be rich, as long as you don't forget about the poor. Let say that you give away 50 percent of your money, that is already very, very, very good.

Further Bapak said about Jesus Christ that He was symbolized by the color green, that means that He was fully pure; that was the reason why he did not marry so he could put all His attention to the spiritual world. The fact that nuns and monks followed this way of life is out of place, because they are not pure at all, so they follow a way for which their inner is not ready. A catholic priest in Subud, felt after doing the latihan some time he should marry, which was correct in Bapak's opinion.

Bapak stated also that Subud was surrounded by many enemies, among them communism and religion, also capitalism. As an example Bapak told that the Muslims in Malaysia were not allowed by their imams to join Subud, because Christians could also enter Subud, a case of religion propagating enmity.