( Nearly all of Bapak's words where inaudible or had been edited from the tape. The meeting opened informally with a discussion about the book "Susila Budhi Dharma" between ST and Bapak translated by Sjarif, and the taping began half way through their discussion )

( ST ) ..... at one third of the price which is in fact three pounds. In addition to that we have a fair number of unbound copies, flat sheets, which we are prepared to offer to any poorer country that can understand English just for the price of the postage and binding them up in addition.

( Sharif ) Do you mean just the Indonesian or just the English version?

( ST ) Including the Indonesian Javanese, Indonesian and English, which we happen to have already printed. The other thing, I don't know if Bapak realizes, that the Germans, Subud Germany, are doing their own cheap edition, cheaper edition, of Susila Budhi Dharma and Spain and Portugal are preparing theirs for distribution in Brazil and the rest of South America.

( Sharif ) In just their own languages ?

( ST ) And the Javanese!

( Sharif ) I explained what the problem is what must be used, up to now, must be evidence which more or less follows Bapak’s talk, Bapak's talks a long time a go. Bapak says yes, Bapak has no objection to go on with that, but since it's a bit out of date, Bapak has no objection if someone writes another; a new one, something like that. In other words, just following Bapak's talks. So, for that Bapak leaves it to whoever has time to do it, if Varindra feels like doing it. ( Laughter ) Whoever has time anyway. Bapak also said that Susi1a Budhi Dharma is something that can be sold to people who buy it, although it is specifically for but it can also be sold outside if people want to but it should not be publicized.

( HS to Bapak ) We welcome you to the meeting here and thank you for coming and your party and now I would like to introduce every body so it is all clear Marilyn Willis, Treasurer, Stephen Thomson, Publications, Mary Thomson, Archives; Howard Paice, Enterprises; Penny Thomey, Secretary; Dan Cheifetz, Tapes; Xavier Guerrand, S.B.I.F. , the helpers, Laksar Rattay, Ronald Jayatilaka, Djubaidah Irwin, Paula Mason, Isabel Prentice. George Prentice, my Vice-chairman, and one gentleman who needs no introduction, Varindra. And one absent, John Beaver, has had to stay absent, something came up at the last minute and he couldn’t be here.

( Bapak ) Karena, ya. Bapak says that the important things in Subud is of course the good cooperation between the kejiwaan and the committee. But the cooperation that exists now, and Bapak accepts that your cooperation here now is really quite good, in other words between the helpers and I.S.C.. This is not really the be all and end all of the helpers work, because the helpers, I.S.C. helpers are not there to do their work looking outward to the rest of the brotherhood, and for that Bapak explains like this. That actually it is the job of the international helpers, actually Bapak said in the beginning, zonal helpers, zonal coordinators, to go and inspect all the centers, all the national centers in their zone and to take stock of what is going on. In other words, are the members mixing other theories when they do Subud? Do they really understand about the latihan? Are there helpers who have resigned because they don’t agree with someone or other? Are there helpers who try to become an authority in the kejiwaan or try to; is there is a kind of one-upmanship among the helpers in a certain place? These are the sort of standard problems which these helpers who go abroad ought to check on and try to sort out. And they then, in this work, they ought to have contact with the national helpers in each place. In other words, they then hand over the problem to the national helpers, look to try and solve it in this way. So in other words, they have to initiate to going out and looking around to see what is going on in each place, and then from their journeys, they come back to the center and form a report which then goes to Bapak. Because in the end, everything goes back to Bapak in the kejiwaan. So that the I.S.C. helpers are only assistants to Bapak, because in the end it is still only Bapak who can really, really take care of the kejiwaan.

So that Mas Ruspans’s idea, for example of having a kind of helpers center here, which would look after, which would be responsible for the whole of the kejiwaan all over the world, is actually a complete misunderstanding. Because he, himself has yet reached the degree where he can, he can do this. He is still on the same level as all the rest of you, he still uses his mind. So Bapak knows very well that for the time being, all you can do is to just check around and doe the simple things and the difficult questions all come back to Bapak. Bapak is very well aware of this and that's why even though the national committees and the national helpers already deal with questions, the difficult ones still all come back to Bapak, and Bapak still gets a lot of letters and a lot of questions which they are not able to deal with.

And this is as it should be, it's alright for you to answer simple questions which you can easily handle, but the rest, Bapak is well aware, it has to come back still to him. And that's why Bapak says that actually, Mas Ruspana misunderstood what Bapak expected of him because Bapak says that in fact., it cannot, be that there is nobody yet that can be responsible for the kejiwaan. It means he still imagines that the kejiwaan is something ordinary that you can solve in an ordinary way, but in fact, it is not at all ordinary. And that's why it still has to be Bapak who deals with these problems in the end.

( Sharif ) I then asked Bapak what he means because Bapak referred to the zone helpers doing the checking and traveling around. Because I explained what Bapak means by the zone helpers is you because what will eventually be the situation is that later on, when there is plenty of money, we will have in the zonal helpers organization, there will be the helper councilors of all the nations included in the zone, and they, from among themselves, will chose one or two helpers to sit in the international helpers dewan. That is, your dewan will then include helpers from each zone. But at the moment, since we don’t have any money, it has to be just helpers who happen to be near I.S.C. who do this job. So when Bapak refers to the zonal helpers he means you. So you are the ones who now have to take the initiative to go around the various zones and check on various countries and find out what is going on and report back and work with the national committees. So that not; Bapak doesn’t mean what we now call the zonal coordinators but he means the I.S.C. helpers. It is the I.S.C. helpers whose job it is to travel around from country to country and find out the situation as Bapak just described.

( Bapak ) Now, about the funds. The funds obviously have to be provided by the committee and the committee has to provide the funds according to what’s available. So the helpers have to put to the committee your requests, that you feel it is necessary to travel here and here and do this and then the committee have to tell you whether the funds are available or not. If they are available, fine; if not, then the committee has to tell you, well I am sorry but it is not available now and we have to postpone this particular project. So now this has to be a cooperation. So for the time being it’s the job of the I.S.C. dewan of helpers to; their job is to go out and to see what’s going on in various part of the world.

Now about the committee. The work of the I.S.C. committee is the top authority on the side of the organization in Subud. And therefore, its job is to do with the worldly side. That is its job, to make sure and check and to encourage the national committees all over the world to organize themselves properly and in addition, to foster the initiation of enterprises all over the world. So this is then the job of I.S.C. and the initiative of this effort, must originate from the top, from I. S.C. and be directed towards all the Subud countries. And so it is clear that the job of the I.S.C. committee is purely on the worldly side, it is on the side of anything that has to do with this world. In other words, looking after the good organization, the brotherhood, of the outer side of the organization, encouraging national committees to get their own place, their own center, encouraging them to set up enterprises and so on.

So the responsibility for whether enterprises are making progress or not in the end comes back to I. S.C. and also the responsibility for the organization as a whole. And in particular, anything to do with money; that is getting in contributions and so on, that's all I.S.C. 's job, and also looking after funds for S.B.I.F and so on, anything to do with money, anything to do with the worldly side is the responsibility of I.S.C. So they have no responsibility on the side of the kejiwaan. But because they are also kejiwaan people, in other words they do the latihan, so therefore when the helpers have a latihan, they must invite the committee to join them, whether it is once a month or twice a month or whatever it is. So that the committee, and Bapak wants this at all levels of the organization, the committee is always invited to the helpers latihans. So this gives them an incentive and it avoids the feeling that they are pushed aside. They also participate in the latihan so they have no responsibility whatsoever in kejiwaan, because that is entirely the province the helpers.

So what Bapak wants to see is that the work of the committee and the helpers is separate, but parallel, so that there is no conflict or anything like that and both will go well. But Bapak sees now there is still a mixture of the two - that the two sides are still meddling in each other's business. So it is a bit like it used to be in Germany where the two were kind of very much mixed up where the result is always misunderstanding and bad feelings and so on, Bapak says to completely separate them. Bapak would like to know, what Bapak has said so far, is there something that bothers you or is there any reaction or any comment; or questions from what Bapak has just said up to now?

This is not a reaction, it is asking Bapak. If Mas Ruspana should still be replaced by a third man helper in the Toronto area, and if so, should we submit names to Bapak or will Bapak find a person, or how should that be arranged, or should we let it be as it is?

Bapak wants to know whether with Mas Ruspana gone, because Mas Ruspana is no longer an I.S.C. helper, Bapak would like to know, do you need someone else or can you work fine without him? If you don’t need another man - then forget it - if you do, then you can - it is not that you do a switch but you fill the vacancy now with someone new? If you do feel there is a need, then you should make a suggestion. Someone who can work well with all of you. ( Laughter ) ….. ( inaudible ) ….. so its not necessary because the two are separated. So the only contact is where the helpers ask for money, ( laughter ) and if the money’s there then they have to give it, and if it isn’t there, they can’t give it. So that should be easy.

( Sharif ) What about you Ronald?

( RJ ) Pardon?

( Sharif ) How about you? How often can you come to Toronto? How frequently could you come to Toronto?

( RJ ) I haven’t even thought about it, about once a month.

( Sharif) Do you mind that ? .........( inaudible )

( DI ) Very seldom Bapak.

( LR ) I have told Herbert many times, all he has to do is pick up the telephone and I'll come up - even once a week by plane, bus, even hitchhiking.

( PM ) I use the telephone if I need to get in touch with them. It's much cheaper than traveling.

( Bapak ) Bapak feels it is necessary to add one more person. So it's these two who are then in Toronto who have to inform the others when it is necessary for them to come. And the one who is looking after the funds has to always ask the helpers ( Laughter ) if they need to. So who is your suggestion for a man in Toronto ?

( PM ) We haven discussed this very much among ourselves. We have some ideas but may we have a few moments to?

( Sharif ) Right now, you want to discuss it now?

( PM ) Not necessarily.

( Sharif ) Why not now?

( PM ) Thank you. should the men do this alone?

( Bapak ) The important thing is that you can work together but Bapak would prefer if it were rather a young person, if possible. Someone who is young and likes to work.

( IP ) Well, should we not ask them if they are willing to or able to before we propose?

( Bapak ) You can discuss it now and give an answer in two days time, so decide in two days time. But in addition to this, Bapak feels it is very important that there should be some form of honorarium, which means regular payment, for the work of the two helpers who are here, who have more time to spend. How do you feel about this? This Bapak also wants to leave to your decision, but Bapak feels it necessary.

( GP ) I have a question Sjarif. I think we understand pretty well up to now that the helpers and committee have different functions. I think a lot of the trouble that has occurred has been a misunderstanding as to just where the dividing line comes. Perhaps Bapak could comment on where is it, or how do we decide.

( Sharif ) But what about what Bapak just said?

( GP ) Yes, if one group doesn’t understand where the dividing line is, how do they come to a decision?

( Bapak ) The responsibility for the kejiwaan is for the progress or decline of the Subud membership, this is putting it simply, although Bapak says, Bapak has explained before several times very clearly. So the point is that the helpers are the pioneers of Subud. Without the helpers, there would be no new members. So it is clear that if, without the helpers there are no new members, it is the helpers who are responsible for the state of the membership. In other words, for the state of Subud, whether there are more members or less members, it is their responsibility. So, the number one responsibility of the helpers, the number one work of the helpers, is to be able to give explanations about Subud that are as clear as possible. And in order to be able to do that, they have to be able to understand what Subud is, as clearly as possible. This is what Bapak has always explained in his talks.

The latihan kejiwaan is something that cannot be understood with the mind, because if it could be understood with the mind, then it would be something that would be on the same level as the mind. But actually God and the worship of God cannot be understood and cannot be know by the mind, and this is exactly in line with religion. In fact, what we receive in Subud and what is received in religion is exactly the same except it manifests differently because all the religions were received in the form of a book, and that book is used by their followers as a guidepost or a guide.

In Subud, we do not have a book, the book was blank. So in other words, what was written in that book was the understanding about anything at all that Bapak wanted to know and then that book entered Bapak himself. So that the book in Subud is the understanding - the book is our own understanding and in Subud the book is Bapak’s understanding. So that is why the book in Subud is what comes out of Bapak, that is Bapak’s talks. And if you publish all Bapak’s talks, you could probably make five hundred volumes, if not a thousand and that is the book in Subud. But its not a book that is supposed to be kept as a kind of authority because it changes all the time, because as the situation changes, so Bapak’s explanations change. Because the understanding is not something fixed, it is something that always evolves but the receiving is the same and this receiving is what is called the gift of God, the grace of God. And this, this receiving, this understanding, is something that is the latihan of life. In other words, it is something that is always alive. And life is something that is not just life here but it is the same life here and life in the next world. So that life means life within the body and also life without the body. And so for Bapak, Bapak now exists with his physical body, but later, when his physical body is destroyed, Bapak will still exist.

And this is why Bapak always advises you to do enterprises so that we become used to using our understanding with the power of God, moved by God. So that when we leave this world, our understanding is still complete. This is what Bapak always tests with us, so Bapak tests with us, walk with you will, now go back. Now don’t walk unless you are made to walk and then there is a different kind of walk.

Now its that which is the essence of the latihan kejiwaan. It is something that cannot be understood by the mind but can be experienced. Because each time you do the latihan, you experience that thing, that inside me there is something alive, there is life. But don’t imagine that it stops just at walking, now it is only that, now you can only feel that. I walk and I am made to walk, but later you will also feel I think and I am made to think. So at that point you can be made to understand things that are outside this world. So for Bapak, when Bapak thinks about the next world, it is the same as when Bapak is thinking about this cup of tea. It’s completely the same thing. It’s for this that Bapak wants us to do enterprises, that we become used to thinking about this world, to bring our minds alive, so that when we die, when we are facing the next world, we can see with our understanding the world we are going into, so that our mind will be fresh and alive. So this is the purpose of the latihan kejiwaan.

( Bapak asks IP to test )

( Testing )

Bapak says you are the one who looks after the correspondence and things here, just relax. Isabel. Bapak gives you names but he often forgets what he has done. Receive and feel, how is Isabel’s heart and feeling when she faces worldly matters?

Finish. Now change, how is the state and feeling of Isabel when she faces the latihan kejiwaan, that is, the worship of God Almighty?

Finish. Was it different? Yes, its very painful to think about this world, but to face the greatness of God is very light and very easy and quiet and peaceful, you don’t have any needs or any wants. But if you mix these two up, then you get a real mess. ( laughter ) The one who can mix the two is only Bapak, up till now. The others not yet, but Bapak hopes very much that eventually the others will also catch up.

As I.S.C. helpers you are like Bapak’s representatives or Bapak’s deputies, but Bapak also says “as though” you are Bapak’s deputies. But in fact you are not yet, but you are “as though” you are Bapak’s deputies. So that when you go and visit a country it is like when Bapak goes and visits that country. It should be, it should be like when Bapak goes and visits a country. But the problem is it is not like that. Because you come to this country and you think to yourself, I am already a dewa, I am a demi-god, I am …….to Bapak’s and I am inspecting here, but the national helpers there feel, I am also a demi-god, why am I being inspected by these characters, so therefore you have to explain when you go there, that I have been asked by Bapak, I have been given the job by Bapak to come. So don’t use the term that I am coming here to inspect or supervise, but I’m just coming to see. And then you explain that I have been given this job by Bapak and now if there are things here which I can see are not being done in the way that they should be, like what is being done in other countries, then if you have no objection, I suggest you check, and if there are people who are influencing Subud members into this and this direction which is wrong, I suggest you do something about it. And that is how you proceed, but always in the name of Bapak, in other words, not yourself.

The way its done now is not really quite fair, but to do it in the way it would be quite fair would take an enormous amount of money, which is ultimately will be the right way to do it, is that from each zone, there comes from each one two people, a man and a woman. All coming here together and then they form a kind of council. Which they each represent in a way their own zones. And each one is the one who will do this inspection in their own zone, but we cannot do that yet, we don’t have the money. But that’s how it will be eventually. Right now we have no choice but to rely on people who happen to be near I.S.C..

England, for example has been doing Subud for a long time and there are lots of members and they probably feel themselves already good at it. And the say, “What is Toronto? Toronto is a group like this and we are like this. How can they come and check on us?” But you can answer them and say, “Well, what can we do.? This is the situation at the moment. To do it the other way would take a tremendous amount of money. In that case, England would have to finance a lot of it because England has so many members and probably they willing to do that. So right now you just have to put up with the way it is."

Then you find a lot of problems, and everything you are about to do is going to be chaotic, but this is how you have to start. You have to start from chaotic and gradually it gets better and better and finally its alright.

So don't forget that the religions took three hundred years to get so that they weren't chaotic anymore. I mean, Islam too - three hundred years until it was well organized, Christianity took three hundred years until it was properly working and organized. So what; in Subud we have twenty years, so it's only a few weeks. So don’t worry about it, of course, you can say it's all raw, but that's the way it is.

So it's impossible for us to try to organize everything properly now. How can you do it, when there are seventy-six countries? How can you organize them properly? If even you take one, you take a small country like Holland, its still, well, things are not working properly, so the same goes for every Subud country at the moment so we have to start. So it doesn’t matter, that’s the way it is.

Bapak doesn’t feel shocked or surprised when hears this or that going on.

About the progress of South America, Bapak certainly cannot say anything about it, Bapak can only go there and see what the situation is because Bapak knows very well the thing is a mess. Just from the fact that in Brazil, for example, there were about five thousand members opened once. There are now one hundred and fifty. That’s already a mess and the person who opened them is no longer to be seen anywhere, Bapak doesn’t even know where he is. So clearly rather than thinking about it here, Bapak would rather just go there.

And you might wonder why it is that Bapak is already old and still traveling around like this. Bapak feels that unless Bapak goes to each place, Bapak is nearly 80 years old, and Bapak feels that unless …….. ( interrupted ).

( Someone ) Bapak is 76 + ( Laughter )

( LR ) Bapak, are we helpers at this point strong enough to go to a country in a part of the world, helping the latihan itself as opposed to explaining about the latihan? The second question I would like to ask Bapak is the feasibility of changing some old nomenclature? Now we, at least in the United States, we have local helper, regional helpers, national helpers, I.S.C. helpers. Could we change this terminology to helper assigned to Subud Chicago, or Subud New York from local helpers or, for regional to helper - helper assigned to region Midwest or North Germany or South Germany and national helper - helper assigned to Germany or U.S.A. and international - helper assigned to I. S.C.?

( Bapak ) ....... ( inaudible ) that business about the latihan. For example, if you went to England, it's clear that the people in England have been doing latihan for a long, long time and therefore, taken overall as an average, they probably have got further. So if you start coming there and saying, "Okay, I'm going to show you how to do 'the latihan. I am going to help you with the latihan", they will laugh at you. They will say, "Okay let's try, let's do latihan together and see”, and then you will be embarrassed, it is better you don’t say anything but you just go there to observe. So to start with, to save you embarrassment, to save people laughing at you, you just go there to observe, you don’t have to say anything. And then just write down, how are the helpers in England doing their job, how are the helpers in Germany doing their job, are they doing it according to what Bapak has said or are they doing it differently? You don’t have to say anything, just write it down and send a report to Bapak and it will be Bapak who makes the decision. It will be Bapak who writes to them and says, ok now stop doing this and do that. It won’t be you, so you won’t get into trouble and you won’t be embarrassed.

( Sharif ) Do you still want to ask the question about terminology?

( Bapak ) ……each one takes responsibility for their own field. …….the last financial year. There was a decision of the shareholders meeting of B.S.B. to make 25% of their net profits to ………

( MW ) The one that Bapak spoke about last May came during this time and we gave half of it to S.B.I.F and out of the half that was left for us we paid all the Indonesian taxes from that and the rest was just invested in B.S.B……..( inaudible )

( Sharif ) How much was it?

( MW ) I think it was $16,000 to $17,000 because we had eight and then we paid the taxes. I can’t remember.

( Sharif ) Taxes for what?

( MW ) There was a 20% tax on getting that dividend. …….. ( inaudible section )

( Sharif ) What was the right use for that? What sort of thing …….( inaudible )

( Bapak ) Bapak’s answer is that S.B.I.F. isn’t able to use those funds yet on an orderly basis, in other words, we can’t set up hospitals or anything, so you just keep it and use it for emergency situations which might come up, so it’s a reserve for time being.

( XG ) ( Regarding S.B.I.F. ) ……..( inaudible ) …… have altogether $90,000 in Indonesia, Switzerland, and Canada, and the total income on a yearly basis is about $12,000, and what. we've been doing, is collecting as much money from different places ...... ( inaudible ) most of it goes either for emergencies or Cengkareng, and also helping the Wisma Mulia housing project and a few organizational aspects, very little ....... ( inaudible ) and have also taken into account that Bapak has stated that S.B.I.F. money should not be used for . .........( inaudible ) but only in the field.

( Bapak ) This is a kind of substitute for it - although it's not a complete ......... ( inaudible ) Bapak explains, .......... ( inaudible ) suggesting that 5% of the gross trading profit of the trading companies all over the world be assigned to Sinar Enterprises International which will not just be a source of funds but is a sign of closeness or unity between the Subud enterprises, without that there is no unity, it's just a free for all ...... ( inaudible ).

Some guidelines for the future Bapak remembers when he was in Holland he heard that there was once some British Subud enterprise asked for a quotation for certain things that a Dutch Subud enterprise was selling and they found that their price was too high for the U.K market and they then dropped the matter. Now Bapak feels that this is not quite right. That actually as Subud enterprises they should help each other, so even if in general the Dutch manufactured articles are now more expensive than British ones because of the state of the British economy, so whether you like it or not the British produce things a lot cheaper. Yet between the Subud enterprises they should support one another, so that they should, for example, look- for the Dutch produced things which are better than what is made in England, so even if they are more expensive, they should try and look for a market for those things.

In other words, what Bapak is saying, there should never be competition between Subud enterprises, they should back each other up and support each other. As Bapak says for example, the Chinese, they will always do this. If they have someone who they are trading with for a long time, even though those things don't fit into the market very easily, where they are, they will still try to market things.

In other words, they will still look for a market for those things that are being produced by their family abroad or whatever it is in their case. Now what Bapak wants us to do is to do something similar. For example, Bapak says, Bapak knows very well although Bapak hasn't studied business, that, for example, it happens sometimes that businessmen will take boatloads of apples out to sea and dump them in order that the price should not go down and therefore, their business associates will lose money. So this is what Bapak is talking about, that we should be compact, we should work together in business. ........... ( inaudible ).

( VV ) ….. Badly burn't really badly burn't, and sentimental idea of how a spiritual business should be, they are still recovering from the blow.

( MT ) Would Bapak approve Immanuel asked as a replacement for me as archivist? Well, he seems to be a more suitable person to do it. I took it over because at the time the former Chairman had resigned and they had just arrived at Kenfield. And I was the UK archivist and I took them over, but now that Immanuel is free and has no other job and he lives there he really seems a more suitable chairman than myself. This was one of things I wanted to ask. I would be prepared to carry on.

( Bapak ) Bapak see no reason to change. If you are doing it, Bapak thinks its better if you go on. If you need someone to help you why not ask Emmanuel, if he’s willing and you need help, if there’s too much work for you ………. ( inaudible ).

( Dan Cheifetz has asked whether its right to continue selling the gambang tape? )

( Bapak ) Regarding the gambang tape, its correct that Bapak isn’t very keen to have it distributed because then the whole of Subud will turn into gambang. Actually Bapak feels that it is very important for the tapes of Bapak’s talks to be spread around among Subud members, especially in the countries where Bapak doesn’t often get to, like Israel. So Bapak says this is very important. Of course, you have to tell the people their not allowed to give them to non-Subud people or play them for non-Subud people, and that should be made quite clear. But at the same time it is very important that the members should have access to them, so this is absolutely clear, you can explain to them that this is not something that they should worry about.

( Sharif ) This is something that Bapak referred to yesterday, actually Bapak asked what about B.S.B.. Why are there always complaint that people do not know what B.S.B. is doing and so on and so on. I explained to Bapak that actually B.S.B. has made regular reports to the brotherhood. They are always in the Subud World News and very few people read Subud World News. So Bapak said, well, I.S.C. has to make an effort to have Subud World News better distributed. So I asked does Bapak mean, for example, that it should be distributed free. And Bapak said actually yes, it would be better. And is it really that expensive to distribute Subud World News free?

( VV ) ……. ( inaudible ) we haven’t supplied SWN to every center …… ( inaudible ) in the world would get one copy free and other copies would be sold.

( Sharif ) What is the cost?

( VV ) The price is a schilling, isn’t it?

( Sharif ) A schilling is what, about 5 cents?

( VV ) About 5 cents.

( Sharif ) …….. ( inaudible ) explains to the national committees that they have to … ( tape cut off here )

( Bapak ) We have started this now but it's a slow business. But we asked Stella Duffy, who's the Canadian librarian to write a piece and we sent this to all the national committees and councilors and asked to see if they cannot find somebody in their country who would take this responsibility, you know, really analyze how many are getting it, promoting the sale and the distribution so it's under way. It's too early to tell how effective it will be.

( In answer to question by Dan Cheifetz ) So for your last question, Bapak also agrees there's no objection to his talks to helpers and committees being sold in the normal way to ordinary members and so on. So Bapak says he's willing to go on to one o'clock. It's now half past twelve so there's half an hour if you want to ask any more questions.

( VV ) I want to ask Bapak if he's willing to comment on something. Many of the helpers and many of the committee people need explanations or some kind of response to the enormous amount of racial problems arising in the world, not only in South Africa, but Canada and Ceylon. What does Bapak feel about this? Why is this happening in the world now and how should be Subud member who happen to belong to various racial groups behave in this context? We would very much like to hear Bapak’s views on this.

( Bapak ) About this, Bapak can say like this, that if we feel about it, what is most important is that we should not be effected. We should not be swept away by what is going on around us. So therefore what is important is to maintain very, very firmly worship our of Almighty God, but outwardly we join in whatever is going on around us. So, for example, if we happen to live in a country where suddenly the communists come to power, then we have to join in with what’s going on. This is outwardly. Inwardly we maintain completely our faith to Almighty God, and then because we surrender, in Subud we surrender everything to Almighty God, our body and our soul, our body and our jiwa, so for that reason God will always guide us and help us, so we will never be caught in a bad situation.

So what is most important is that we are not influenced, outwardly we join in whatever is going on. If the communists are in power, what can we do, we have to cooperate with them, but inwardly we surrender only to God Almighty so that we will always be guided and protected in every situation. The most important thing is not to be influenced, because if we start to be influenced by this kind of conflict, then we will be like a cork tossed in mid-ocean and we will certainly end up in a mess and in darkness. We will lose our way. So this is why nowadays the situation is, its not only political groups that do this, even religions join in, in this kind of conflict. But we in Subud, we just; for example, Bapak you might say, look at the conflict between Israel and the Muslims. If Bapak remembers he’s a Muslim, then he should then hate Israel, but Bapak isn’t like that. Bapak just surrenders to God Almighty because Bapak is Subud. So its not that God loves Israel and hates Muslims or God loves Muslims and hates Israel, God is the same to everybody. So it’s the same in Subud. So in Subud we have to remain uninfluenced.

So for example, Bapak wants to give an example. Mas Prio has just written to Bapak and asks Bapak whether Bapak has any objection if he joins with a political party and starts to have a role in the Muslim political party, an advisory role to the leader of the Muslim political party in Indonesia. Bapak said no, Bapak doesn’t want to get involved with this because then we get involved, Subud gets involved and we become tied to all sorts of things which we don’t want to get involved in. Bapak says we must always be like oil and water with political things. We must never get mixed up. We always remain separate from it. So this is why what is important is that what comes in Subud is not influenced by the situation around.

This is where, for example, Mas Ruspana also was still completely wrong because within him Mas Ruspans is Subud but outwardly he’s still ordinary. He’s still effected by political ideas and political things. So he tries to make Subud follow in the footsteps of politics. For example, he would like here to organize Subud in the same way its organized in Indonesia. More than that, he want to organize Subud here like the Indonesian government is organized with a code of ethics and all this kind of thing. But how can you have a code of ethics in Subud when Subud is all receiving from the power of God Almighty? You can have a code of ethics when you have a ……… on yoga, when everyone does the same thing, but in Subud you don’t all move the same way. You all do all sorts of things. So there goes your code of ethics! So what else.

( XG ) I would like to ask something about B.S.B. Would it be right for B.S.B. to send to each investor, at least an annual report ? It is customary for any banking institution in Europe, to receive, if you are a shareholder, quarterly, every six months, for at least a year ( inaudible ) ...... This of course, not being part of S.W.N. which is another story. But as an investor, something that tells you what is happening is the normal way and I feel it should be right, and it doesn't show well for B.S.B. at this time of the fact that if you are an investor, you never get information from them, irrelevant of the fact that another magazine has to be used for that purpose, but that is something else. I believe that each investor in his own right should receive something. I wonder if Bapak would comment on this.

( Sharif ) Yes it should be like that.

( XG ) Could a recommendation be made to B.S.B. that they send to each investor?

( Bapak ) Yes. Bapak said that probably what they had in mind is that in a normal bank, the shareholders, even the smallest shareholder, holds a substantial number of shares, whereas in B.S.B. most shareholders have only one share or maybe two, and that to circulate, to write to each one, the cost might be more than it would be in a normal situation. So that’s why Bapak felt that maybe it is enough, if the information is only given in Subud World News, but then a real effort is made to get Subud World News to everybody. Then I pointed out to Bapak that in my opinion to mail a report annually or semiannually to all the shareholders is actually not such a great expense. Then Bapak said, well in that case, it would be alright to do it semiannually, Bapak suggested semiannually rather than annually.

It would serve two purposes. Not only it would informs, but it almost helps you also to say I will send more if its doing well. So its not only limited by the fact its not reporting, but it also helps stimulate the people who already believe in you, by being able to say, maybe its time to put more money in it, or it would even help people who have given one time money, to go on giving.

So where should this suggestion to B.S.B. originate from?

( XG ) From the compact councilor or a recommendation from I.S.C. or Bapak approving the fact.

( Bapak ) You don’t have to mention Bapak. Once you mention Bapak, its enough for Bapak to do it himself. Actually Bapak wants to tell you that Bapak has often suggested this himself, but it seems the people who run the bank are a bit lazy. And Bapak doesn’t really understand why this is because even Bapak looks at someone like Halim Weelton, who worked diligently before. It seems as soon as someone comes to Indonesia, they become lazy too. So in the end, it looks like the only one who isn’t lazy in Indonesia is Bapak, but Bapak doesn’t know why its like that. Very strange!

( Marylyn ) There was a statement that came out from the bank, a copy of Bapak’s talk that he gave at the opening of the bank and I think there was also the latest financial figures with it.

( Sharif ) Where did it come to? Well, I mean, who did they send it to?

( Marylyn ) I don’t know who all they sent it to. I got one direct.

( Sharif ) I would like to see that, because Bapak didn’t see it and I certainly didn’t see it. Could you bring me a copy? We should try to find out how widely it was distributed. Yes.

( Bapak ) So actually this decision, what was just discussed, Bapak wants you to inform the bank, I.S.C. or W.S.C. or whatever. In fact, its much better if you inform the bank, then the bank will come to Bapak and say, “Look Bapak, we’ve got this request from the brothers overseas to do this and this”. Then Bapak can pretend he’s never seen it before. It will be more effective that way.

( RT ) Could you ask Bapak to be effective with lazy translators? ( laughter )

( Sharif ) ( inaudible section ) ……Well, this is something I discussed with you before, Herbert, that out of the three councilors that were appointed at Kenfield last year to do S. Widjojo around the world, the one that has not been very successful - the one for North and South America, and my suggestion was whether we could now appoint someone to take up where Fernando never really got started and this is what I asked Bapak and Bapak now throws it back to you. Who do you suggest to do this?

( VV ) I have one comment to make before this – after Bapak goes to Latin America and finishes his American tour, to follow it up. Yes? Sjarif, will you be giving talks?

( Sharif ) Yes. You see I give talks on S. Widjojo, but traveling with Bapak, as Bapak said, Bapak himself is traveling not for S. Widjojo. Bapak has other things to say. I also can’t push S. Widjojo as much as I would alone, for example, I can just give a report. There should be someone else who does the pushing, like Rashid in Europe.

( VV ) ( inaudible ) …….I would suggest that if you would agree that when you went around, if you have a feeling about somebody, that you should recommend him to us and then we can appoint him.

( Sharif ) So far I don’t. That’s the trouble with Latin America. I am also talking about North America. I don’t there’s ever been one really, except Herbert has been a little bit around Canada.

( VV ) So there’s no one who could really follow it around, I would really suggest that somebody like this guy, Hanaif, somebody like that from England.

( Sharif ) Yes, but someone who can stick to the message, stick to the facts. Of course I mean I could easily say Varindra, I’m sure you would be very good, but you don’t have the time and I don’t know if Herbert has the time. I don’t see many people. So that’s it then, and Bapak can now close the meeting.

( Bapak ) So Bapak thanks you all very much for attending and that we were able to reach some decisions about the things we discussed.

And Bapak prays that everything will work out well.